BULLS Cross E Review

Bulls Cross E Electric Bike Review
Bulls Cross E
Bulls Cross E Bosch Active Line Mid Drive Ebike Motor
Bulls Cross E I Rack With Spring Latch Pannier Blockers Battery Slot Fuxon Led Light
Bulls Cross E Adjustable Angle Stem Ergonomic Grips Bosch Intuvia Display
Bulls Cross E Sr Suntour Nex E25 Spring Suspension
Bulls Cross E 10 Speed Shimano Alivio Drivetrain
Bulls Cross E Rack Mount Bosch Electric Bike Battery Powerpack 400
Bulls Cross E Plastic Chain Cover
Bulls Cross E Rear Mount Adjustable Kickstand Tektro Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Bulls Cross E Bosch Ebike Battery Charger
Bulls Cross E Stock Mixte
Bulls Cross E Stock Diamond
Bulls Cross E Electric Bike Review
Bulls Cross E
Bulls Cross E Bosch Active Line Mid Drive Ebike Motor
Bulls Cross E I Rack With Spring Latch Pannier Blockers Battery Slot Fuxon Led Light
Bulls Cross E Adjustable Angle Stem Ergonomic Grips Bosch Intuvia Display
Bulls Cross E Sr Suntour Nex E25 Spring Suspension
Bulls Cross E 10 Speed Shimano Alivio Drivetrain
Bulls Cross E Rack Mount Bosch Electric Bike Battery Powerpack 400
Bulls Cross E Plastic Chain Cover
Bulls Cross E Rear Mount Adjustable Kickstand Tektro Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Bulls Cross E Bosch Ebike Battery Charger
Bulls Cross E Stock Mixte
Bulls Cross E Stock Diamond

Summary

  • Well priced considering the quality Bosch-made electric drive system, four frame size choices, and three frame styles (high, mid, and low-step)
  • Integrated LED lights and premium Continental tires with reflective sidewall stripes help to keep you visible in dark riding conditions
  • Packed with useful accessories such as fenders, an adjustable kickstand, adjustable stem, rack-mounted mini pump, and keyed-alike cable lock
  • The Bosch Active Line Cruise motor doesn't offer as much torque but operates more quietly and conserves energy, rack-mounted battery positions weight high and rear vs. low and center

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Video Review

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Introduction

Make:

BULLS

Model:

Cross E

Price:

$2,799

Body Position:

Upright

Suggested Use:

Neighborhood, Urban, Commuting, Touring

Electric Bike Class:

Pedal Assist (Class 1)
Learn more about Ebike classes

Warranty:

2 Years Motor and Battery, 5 Years Frame

Availability:

Europe, Canada, United States, Australia, New Zealand

Model Year:

2017

Bicycle Details

Total Weight:

59.2 lbs (26.85 kg)

Battery Weight:

5.8 lbs (2.63 kg)

Motor Weight:

8.8 lbs (3.99 kg)

Frame Material:

7005 Aluminium Alloy

Frame Sizes:

17.7 in (44.95 cm)18.9 in (48 cm)19.7 in (50.03 cm)20.9 in (53.08 cm)

Geometry Measurements:

Wave: 18" Stand Over Height, 22.5" Reach

Frame Types:

Step-Thru, Mid-Step, High-Step

Frame Colors:

Matte Black with Gloss White and Blue Accents

Frame Fork Details:

SR Suntour NEX-E25 DS HLO Spring Suspension, 63 mm Travel, Lockout Adjust, 100 mm Hub Length, 9 mm Skewer with Quick Release

Frame Rear Details:

142 mm Hub Length, 9 mm Skewer with Quick Release

Attachment Points:

Rear Rack Bosses, Fender Bosses, Bottle Cage Bosses

Gearing Details:

8 Speed 1x8 Shimano Alivio RD-T4000SGS, 11-34 Tooth Cassette

Shifter Details:

Shimano Acera SL-M310 Triggers on Right

Cranks:

SR Suntour, 170 mm Length, 18 Tooth Chainring

Pedals:

Wellgo 884DU Plastic Platform with Rubber Tread

Headset:

Semi-Integrated, Threaded, 1-1/8"

Stem:

Alloy, 90 mm Length, Quill 180 mm, Adjustable Angle 0° to 60°

Handlebar:

Alloy, 600 mm or 620 mm Width, 25° Up, 37° Sweep Back, 25.4 mm Bore

Brake Details:

Tektro HD-M285 Hydraulic Disc with 180 mm Front Rotor and 160 mm Back Rotor, Tektro Levers with Adjustable Reach, Two-Finger

Grips:

Velo Rubber Ergonomic

Saddle:

Selle Royal Freeway City

Seat Post:

Aluminum Alloy

Seat Post Length:

350 mm

Seat Post Diameter:

30.9 mm

Rims:

Bulls DDM-1, Double Wall, Alloy, 36 Hole

Spokes:

Stainless Steel, 14G Front 13G Rear, Stainless Steel, Black with Nipples

Tire Brand:

Continental E-Contact Reflex, 42-622, 28" x 1.6"

Wheel Sizes:

28 in (71.12cm)

Tire Details:

73 PSI Max Inflation, Reflective Sidewall Stripe, Safety Plus Puncture Protection

Tube Details:

Presta Valve

Accessories:

i-Rack with Spring Latch and Slide Holes (25 kg Max), SKS Rookie Mini Pump, Rain Force Plastic Fenders, Plastic Chain Cover, AXA Cafe Lock, Flick Bell on Right, Integrated 6 Volt LED Headlight, Integrated Fuxon LED Back Light, AXA Cable Lock (All Locks Use the Same Key), Adjustable Length Kickstand, Sticker Slap Guard

Other:

Locking Removable Battery Pack

Electronic Details

Motor Brand:

Bosch Active Line Cruise

Motor Type:

Mid-Mounted Geared Motor
Learn more about Ebike motors

Motor Nominal Output:

250 watts

Motor Peak Output:

500 watts

Motor Torque:

50 Newton meters

Battery Brand:

Panasonic

Battery Voltage:

36 volts

Battery Amp Hours:

13.4 ah

Battery Watt Hours:

482.4 wh

Battery Chemistry:

Lithium Manganese Cobalt

Charge Time:

4.5 hours

Estimated Min Range:

40 miles (64 km)

Estimated Max Range:

130 miles (209 km)

Display Type:

Bosch Intuvia, Removable, Adjustable Angle, Grayscale, Backlit LCD, (Hold Reset and i to Enter Settings)

Readouts:

Speed, Assist Level (Eco, Tour, Sport, Turbo), Battery Level (1-5), Odometer, Trip Distance, Estimated Range, Clock, Max Speed, Average Speed, Trip Time, Shift Assist Recommendation

Display Accessories:

Independent Button Pad with Tactile Feedback on Left, 5 Volt 500 mA Micro USB Port on Display

Drive Mode:

Advanced Pedal Assist (Combined Torque, Cadence and Speed Measured 1,000 Times Per Second), (Eco 40% 35 Nm, Tour 100% 40 Nm, Sport 150% 45 Nm, Turbo 250% 50 Nm)

Top Speed:

20 mph (32 kph)

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Written Review

Depending on your frame of reference, $2,800 may not sound like a bargain price, but considering the Bosch motor, upgraded 500 watt hour battery pack, advanced Intuvia display panel, and the many frame size and style options that this bike offers… I think it’s an incredible value. The Bulls Cross E is a city style ebike that would make an excellent commuting platform or casual neighborhood ride. It comes standard with nearly every accessory you could want and they all match and fit properly. It’s fairly comfortable thanks to a name brand saddle, suspension fork, ergonomic grips, and adjustable stem but starting with the optimal frame size and style should not be overlooked as they are generally not an option on cheaper products. When you combine the correct size with some well integrated comfort features, you end up with a bike that you can ride further before feeling uncomfortable, and that’s a huge deal on an electric bike rated from 30 to 100+ miles per charge. Instead of a one size fits all approach, the Cross E caters to your needs. Want the easiest frame to mount and don’t mind a bit of frame flex? Then the wave step-thru model is best… want to look a bit sportier and improve stiffness but still have an easier time mounting? Then the mixte mid-step model is best… trying to optimize stiffness, power transfer, and possibly make the bike easier to lift and hang on some car racks? Then the traditional diamond high-step is your best choice. As a guy, I love that the mixte frame looks a bit more masculine but still provides lower stand-over height and love that Bulls chose a color scheme that looks professional and appeals to both men and women. There are so many little details to discuss about this electric bicycle, and they are all listed in the stats section above and mentioned in the video, but they could be easy to overlook or not appreciate if you haven’t seen as many electric bicycles as I have. The only area I would even think about upgrading is the seat post. I’d consider swapping the 30.9 mm rigid Aluminum post with a suspension post to provide a bit more cushion because my back and neck are extra sensitive from a sports injury years ago. Keep in mind, if you think about swapping the post out, it will raise the minimum saddle height by a few inches and thus impact your fit. Only go for this if you don’t mind the saddle being a bit higher.

Driving the Cross E is an internally geared mid-motor from Bosch. It’s not their fastest or most powerful model, but it is their smoothest, quietest, and longest range because it sips power. The Bosch Active Line Cruise is the same size and weight as the high-powered Performance models but has a slightly different styled. It offers 200 watts nominal with peak 500+ watts and up to 48 Newton meters of torque. Compared to the CX motor which offers 75 Nm, it’s weaker, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. The Cross E was designed for smooth, paved environments where acceleration isn’t encumbered by rocks and trail obstacles. It moves efficiently, even without motor assistance, thanks to larger 700c (28″ diameter) wheels and hybrid tires. And the tires Bulls opted for here are made from puncture resistant material and have reflective stripes on the side. When you pair a locking short-travel suspension fork with those firm tires (rated to 75 PSI) you get a smooth coasting machine. I guess what I’m trying to convey here is that the Active Line motor fits the use case and build choices of the bike. Yep, it’s a bit slower and weaker, but it works just fine. And just like all of the other Bosch motors right now, it delivers shift detection to reduce strain on the chain, sprockets, and derailleur. With eight gears to shift through and a mid-level component group (Shimano Alivio), I feel that the overall pedaling experience and reliability are good.

Powering the Cross E is a Bosch Powerpack 500 rack-mounted battery (despite the demo model in the video having only a Powerpack 400). To me, this battery is almost overkill! Expect excellent range because of the Active Line motor and efficient tires. The battery contains Lithium-ion batteries that are known for being lightweight and long lasting, the pack weighs ~5.8 lbs and charges in roughly 4.5 hours from empty. You can charge the battery while mounted in the rack or slide it out and bring it into your room or office. Note that the first half of the battery charges faster and might only take an hour and a half or two to fill because the cells aren’t having to balance. Bosch offers two chargers and I cannot say for sure which one you’ll get with this ebike. They are both relatively light and compact but one puts out 4 Amps and the other just 2 Amps. Considering that this bike has the larger battery and nicer Bosch Intuvia display panel, I wouldn’t be surprised if it came with the 4 Amp. And you’ll have no problem taking that charger with you because the bike comes with a really great rack. Consider grabbing a trunk bag or panniers at your local shop. And, to really extend the life of the battery, I suggest storing it in a cool, dry location. Extreme heat and cold can wear the cells down more quickly. Part of what you’re paying for on this bike is the Bosch name which promises quality and longevity. Their battery designs are backward compatible so far which makes finding and replacing packs easier. You get a two-year comprehensive warranty on the bike because that’s what Bosch offers and I hear from shops frequently that they rarely ever have issues.

To operate the bike, just charge that battery and slide it into the rack interface. Make sure it’s locked securely and then press the power button on the display panel. The Intuvia display is my favorite, now that Bosch has a smaller Bosch Purion model, because it’s easy to read and has a USB charging port built into the right side. With a cheap adapter cable you can charge your phone on the go and take advantage of the high capacity battery. The display panel is greyscale but backlit by a faint blue glow. It can be swiveled forward and back to reduce glare while riding and even removed completely for safe storage! Considering that this bike weighs nearly 60 lbs, I really appreciate the quick release wheels, seat, battery, and display panel because they make it so versatile for transport or maintenance. The display panel has a bunch of settings that can be explored by holding reset and i together once it’s on, and you can navigate through the four levels of assist that it offers by pressing + or – on the independent button pad. This pad is positioned very close to the left grip, making it easy and safe to use while riding. It produces a tactile click which lets you keep your eyes on the road vs. looking down to the display for confirmation. I usually ride efficient Bosch powered bikes like this with the two lowest levels of assist but might explore the third (Sport) here because of the weaker motor. All in all, the display interface is great except that you cannot turn off backlighting. You can press the lightbulb icon to turn the integrated lights on or off, but not the backlighting of the display.

Other highlights of this bike include a cafe lock with cable insert that uses the same key as the battery pack, integrated lights that run off the main battery, plastic fenders that have extra support arms to keep them quiet (plastic is light and durable but tends to be noisier), a well-positioned kickstand with adjustable length, a bell, and hydraulic disc brakes. Getting up to speed, being efficient, and feeling comfortable are all important but stopping is critical. Hydraulic brakes tend to be easier to actuate and in this case, adjustable-reach levers allow you to dial in fit. Whether you have small hands, large hands, or wear gloves for part of the year, these levers are going to fit you well with a bit of quick adjustment. Staying clean really matters if you’re cycling to work daily (and have to deal with wet conditions) and so, in addition to fenders, Bulls has also included a plastic chain cover to keep your pant leg clean and snag-free. It may see minor and obvious but so many other bikes don’t do this (many which are mountain or trail bikes… but some city bikes as well). Coming back to that price point, yes, it’s way more than some of the online-only direct to consumer products. But you do get something for your money here. This is an electric bike that I would expect to last longer, perform better, and be safer than many alternatives. The convenience of integrated lights that won’t be left on accidentally or stolen so easily is great. The list of Pro’s and Con’s below goes into more details and links to some good accessories but the vast dealer network of Bulls retailers can also help you to get this thing setup right for your needs. Really think about the frame style that works best for your body and then pick the correct size. One final little note, they even threw in a mini-pump that fits into the rear rack! To me, that’s awesome, and makes this a candidate for e-bike touring. Big thanks to Bulls for partnering with me on this review and inviting me out to their headquarters for back to back test rides. It allowed for a better comparison of motors and appreciation for the differences between commuter models (of which they have several). Frame specifics for the Cross E here are: Wave: 45/50cm, Mixte: 45/50cm, Diamond: 48/53cm.

Pros:

  • This is one of the most feature complete electric bikes I have tested, especially at the $2,800 price point, you get lights, fenders, a bell, adjustable kickstand, mini-pump, and a cafe and cable lock that are keyed to match the battery so you don’t end up with extra keys weighing down your keychain (you get four copies of the key vs. just with many other ebikes)
  • It offers an exceedingly comfortable ergonomic experience through a combination of basic suspension fork, gel saddle, swept-back handlebar with ergonomic grips and adjustable-angle stem, consider adding a 30.9 mm seat post suspension for even more back and neck comfort if you ride on varied terrain (but note that it will raise the minimum saddle height by ~3 inches)
  • Your choice from four frame sizes and three frame styles (wave, mixte, and diamond) allows for proper fit and confidence when riding, you can optimize for stiffness and power transfer with the diamond frame or easy-approach and stand-over with the wave
  • Sometimes, plastic fenders can rattle and produce more noise than Aluminum or Steel but Bulls has opted for nicer fenders here with additional support struts so they aren’t so loud… I did hear the kickstand chatter a bit when I went off of the curb
  • Hydraulic disc brakes tend to require less hand strength and feel smooth and powerful, you get mid-level Tektro brakes on the Cross E and the levers offer adjustable reach to accommodate different hand sizes
  • In addition to a nice set of fenders, the Bulls Cross E also comes with a plastic chain cover to keep your right pant leg clean and snag-free
  • The Bosch Intuvia display panel is large and easy to read even if you’re sitting up straight and further away, I love that it has a Micr-USB port built in so you can charge your phone or other portable electronic device while riding, use cables like this for many devices and a USB-C or Lightening cable depending on your phone
  • With eight gears and a mid-level derailleur, you get enough cadence range for climbing or cruising at the 20 mph top assisted speed, the Bosch motor offers shift detection to keep it smooth and protect the hardware a bit more than many other ebikes I have tested
  • The rear rack is impressive, it uses standard gauge tubing, which should work for most panniers, and has two slots for lower clips or bungee cords
  • Bulls is an international e-bike company with many dealers and a solid two-year+ warranty, this means the bike should be assembled more professionally, fit to you, and supported over the long run
  • Overall, I like the color scheme that Bulls chose for this model because it’s gender neutral and professional, the black cables, grey battery, and motor casing all blend into the black frame

Cons:

  • The suspension fork is kind of basic with limited adjustability, it’s a spring design which weighs more but at least it comes with lockout so you can stop dive (when the bike tips forward under hard braking) and increase efficiency by stopping bob as you ride if the terrain is smooth
  • Weighing in at nearly 60 pounds (27 kg), this is not an especially lightweight electric bicycle, the fenders, rack, lights, kickstand, longer bars, gel saddle, mini-pump etc. all add up… but at least the battery and display panel are removable and both wheels have quick release for easier flat fixes and maintenance
  • If you opt for the wave step-thru frame style, there may be some frame flex because of the rear mounted battery (and this flex could increase if you load up the rack), it’s not the end of the world and I noticed a cross-bar reinforcing the lowest section of frame, but it is a compromise in strength to optimize for easy-mounting
  • The Bosch centerdrive motor systems use a smaller than normal sprocket which spins 2.5x per crank arm revolution and this tends to produce a bit more noise (especially at high RPM), the Active Line Cruise model is the quietest version because it isn’t as zippy or powerful as the Performance Line models but it still produces some extra noise
  • To save costs, some of the accessories are generic or off-brand including the fenders, non-locking grips, and lights but other areas are still high-end including the Selle Royal Saddle and AXA frame and cable lock
  • I didn’t have an issue with this during my test ride but have noticed that some adjustable angle stems can get loose over time if you ride on bumpy terrain, just keep an eye on the stem and consider swapping it with a rigid stem someday if you do have issues, it’s a good way to determine which angle and length you like by adjusting over time and then narrowing down and buying one that’s rigid
  • I’m not a huge fan of plastic pedals with rubber tread because they can get a little bit slippery in wet riding conditions, but at least they won’t scrape your shins if you slip off, these pedals are probably fine for urban riding and can be replaced with something like this that’s affordable and good looking
  • I love that the high-step and mid-step frames come with bottle cage bosses (and they all have a rack) but the deep step-thru model does not have them

Resources:

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e-boy
1 day ago

Bulls Cross Lite E Wave

Andy_in_CA
3 days ago

I've tweaks the design to be a little bit wider and added a cross bar for the front of the rack so the Velcro straps have a place to hold on to. There are slots for the bar to be zip tied to the rack.

The tie down is now two pieces so it prints with out major over hang supports which make it a bit cleaner.

If anyone is interested in the new parts I'll post them later today when I'm home. The bag sits really solidly now.

1/3
Eglon
5 days ago

I've got about 100 miles on the bike so far and I'm loving it! I ride most of the time in ECO or 1 since that easily puts me in the mid-20's and helps reduce the battery draw and use. It's cold here now (mid teens) in the mornings and just a little better in the afternoon. Some of the changes that I've made already are an accessory bar that I mounted the light on. I like it up higher. I just drilled a hole through the aluminum mounting bar and bolted it to that with the existing hardware. I also put on an Ibera fat bike rack and it fit almost perfect. Since I didn't need the spacers I had to get shorter bolts, but were easy to get in stainless at the local hardware store. I plan on getting their rack pack with expanding panniers. I also got a handlebar bag to hold a couple of tools and the battery key as well as my phone. One of my most needed adds was the fenders. I got the RadBikes full fenders for the RadRover and they required just a little bit of modification to fit great. The rear wheel is a little bit of a pain to take off since I'm used to non ebikes. For the rear fenders I drilled out the rivets and drilled a hole in the plastic at the right point for the upper cross mount, but that was all. Since I will use this year-round for commuting in snow and rain the fenders will be fantastic.

My next addition is coming Monday and that's a chain keeper, the ChainSpy2. I've noticed that in first gear if it's bumpy and I'm pedaling the chain might jump off and get caught between the ring and the plastic protector. I understand that this is often a problem in 1 by setups where the chain can't quite flex and there's no derailleur to help keep it in place. Not a unique thing the the HF. The other way to help would be to get a WolfTooth wide/narrow chainring. But I think I'll wait to see how the ChainSpy2 works and hopefully wear out the current chainring before I go to a narrow/wide setup.

I just ordered a Brooks saddle as well. Can't wait to try that one out!

I'm still looking for a neoprene battery case, but am getting to the point where I think I'll have to make my own. I also plan on getting the Origin8 slick fat tires for the non-snow months.

1/4
Dewey
5 days ago

do you think Giant is better? is there any way to reprogram to achieve 25mph ?

A comparable Haibike is the Sduro Cross 4.0 which uses the Yamaha PW motor with 3 sensors vs 4 on the Giant Explore’s Yamaha SyncDrive motor and Giant use custom software presumably to incorporate the 4th sensor. The criticism I have read online about the Yamaha-PW is the motor delivers less pedal assist after 80rpm and stops supporting at 100rpm cadence so that won’t affect you too much if you like to pedal around 80rpm. The new Yamaha PW-X and Giant version of the motor called the SyncDrive Pro support up to 120rpm cadence and are available on more expensive Haibike and Giant speed pedelec models. Giant have more brand presence in local bike shops if local warranty support is what you’re thinking about. A summary of controller over-rides is at https://www.ebiketuning.com/comparison/yamaha-tuning.html but you will void your warranty and they don’t ship to the US, personally I don’t see the point, you will probably break something so if you want to go faster just buy a speed pedelec.

Over50
2 weeks ago

Congrats on the nearly 2K miles! I can’t tell from the photo, but did you use the coated steel cable the mount comes with? This is the key to prevent it from moving, you’ll need to cross it around the stem and lock it in the mount with the set screw.
Thanks Chris. I did wrap the cable per the instructions and to be sure I took it apart and remounted it today. Similar result but perhaps a little tighter on the second try. I rode around a bit and it didn't really flop around. My contents rattled around but I would pack more diligently if I had been riding for other than testing the bag. Maybe you can look at this video intending to show how much play there is and let me know how that compares to the bags you have mounted. The instructions aren't too clear about whether it should be absolutely tight or have some play. The bag still sits at 90 degrees per the instructions.

Chris Nolte
2 weeks ago

Just about to top 2,000 miles (sitting at about 1,965). The mileage is accumulating at a slower pace the second half of the year since I have the Haibike now as well. Bike is great on the commute.

But really posting an update asking for some feedback from @Sonoboy or @Saratoga Dave. I installed my Ortlieb handlebar bag. The instructions are pretty straightforward however I can't get the mount such that it doesn't move. Is there supposed to be some play? I can move the mount/bag and it will return to the 90 degree position but I'm afraid its going to flop around when riding. Its fairly firm but I can definitely move it up and down a bit. Do your mounts/bags fit 100% tight with no play? The Charger handlebars are wide at the mounting point.

I started with the Ultimate Plus small. It will fit my cell phone in the clear plastic cover on top, a water bottle, the shoulder strap, my wallet and my extra Abus folding lock just for an example on capacity.

Congrats on the nearly 2K miles! I can’t tell from the photo, but did you use the coated steel cable the mount comes with? This is the key to prevent it from moving, you’ll need to cross it around the stem and lock it in the mount with the set screw.

AdamC
2 weeks ago

wife is a stay at home mom with a car for running errands and such, worst case scenario I can use it especially in nasty weather. I'm more concerned about long term relaiability
tried to find the best at my budget with the juiced cross current- downside is there is no local dealer to fix it.

Cole
2 weeks ago

I have been researching affordable e-bikes (specifically mountain bikes) lately and have a very low budget of under $1600. I have narrowed down my search to the Radrover and the Volt Yukon 750. I’ve heard that Radrovers have more upgrade options and come with some better components stock. But I just love the look of the Volt Yukon 750 and it’s intergrated battery. I would I have also considered building my own but would like to spare the hassle (I’m not good with electronics) and just buy a budget company made bike. I plan to commute on my future ebike and do some cross country mtb trails. Any help is greatly appreciated :) ! I am open to Suggestions for other bikes I just want quality and mtb capability.

AdamC
2 weeks ago

cross current s is pedal assist with throttle... in wv motor has to be less than 2hp

barry c
2 weeks ago

Hi, I'm an avid mountain biker, I ride cross country and to a lesser extent mild downhill runs. I put in usually around 100 miles + per week. I ride a Yeti MTB. I'm getting older, knees falling apart and a few other issues, etc so I've decided to invest in an Ebike to ride part time. I've been looking at ebike reviews and unfortunately I cannot find any haibike reviews from actual mountain bikers. I've found one or two, but it's usually someone jumping jumps or riding up a gravel road or paved road. Nobody ever really discusses the frame geometry, how they handle etc? Or if they're good on rocky rooty trails etc. I don't ride on dirt paths, I ride on actual singletrack roots and rocks and switchbacks etc too.

I have ordered a Haibike Sduro Nduro RX. I only found a few reviews and videos for this bike, none of which told me much. This has a long travel fork (180mm) which would normally be excessive for regular cross country riding but it can be adjusted down to 150mm which isn't too bad...especially since this has a motor to haul it around? Or I'm hoping this will be the case anyway?

Is anyone here a regular experienced mountain biker? Does anyone here have a Haibike mountain bike? Do they handle well? I would have gone with the specialized since it's a known quantity, specialized FSR is a pretty decent bike, and the turbo lev just added a motor...but the Haibike was a much better value, but I know nothing about the bike/handling/etc.

Thank you.

Hey, I ride a 2017 haibike Xduro all mountain 7 that has 3" tires (boost) and 27.5 wheels and it rips the single track. I raced for many years and still avidly ride 2000 miles a year on single track in the N cali sierras Tahoe and grass valley areas. I keep an extra 500 battery on board and use it regularly when riding over 20 miles. The tires gobble up obstacles (10 to 15 lb. pressure) like they are not there and my confidence is 30% higher i will make it through a tough spot.
I committed and rode centuries for decades and even raced pro mountain bike in the 80s.
I am 70 and last year developed knee arthritis. I just a month ago finished a procedure called Regenexx. The short version is an MD takes bone marrow blood from your hip and spins it down to get the stem cells and injects it into your knees.
In a month my knees are 80% better and expect the regeneration of my soft tissue to continue for another year. I could not even walk before i was on crutches. This is so cool!! its expensive $7K and no insurance will pay for it. A friend of mine had it done to his hips a year ago and he is way better. I highly recommend it. More info if you ask.

J.R.
2 weeks ago

Dear Emotion community, can anyone recommend how to adjust easy motion neo cross battery? It is loosened now on my ebike and I want to know if there is a way to tighten it so that the curved battery sits tight on frame. Many thanks.
Is the battery loose, or do you have a rattle in the area of the battery? I ask because many of us have had a rattle and the first assumption is the battery.

There are foam bumpers along the inside edge that could have compressed over time and no longer keep the battery snug. Those could be replaced. I've never found or heard of any adjustment for that.

The rattle many of us have had is actually not the battery. I wrote the following in another thread as it relates to the rattle.

"The rattle you hear in the area of the battery is most likely the controller rattling in the frame. I have a 2015 and my controller is above the battery, your 2013 controller is below the battery in the frame cavity. I noticed a rattle whenever I rode on washboard trails or crossed railroad tracks and I was sure it was the battery. Then I did some bumpy riding on purpose and noticed the rattle was metal on metal, so it couldn't be the battery as the pack case is plastic.

So I removed the plastic cover (just a couple screws) on the frame above the battery compartment (yours would be below the battery compartment) and with the cover removed the controller dropped down. There aren't any mechanical fasteners holding the controller in place and no padding to prevent it from rattling. I applied some strips of adhesive backed dense foam weather strips to the four sides and problem solved.

I wouldn't completely cover the controller in foam as that could prevent any heat from escaping. Just a couple strips should do it. The internals of the controller are very well protected from weather and vibration, it's fully potted with RTV silicone."

Your Neo controller is below the battery. Hope this helps.

Giorgia
2 weeks ago

Dear Emotion community, can anyone recommend how to adjust easy motion neo cross battery? It is loosened now on my ebike and I want to know if there is a way to tighten it so that the curved battery sits tight on frame. Many thanks.

Chapooski
2 weeks ago

Any PEBL owners finding this thread? better.bike has now started production in their Massachusetts facility. Youtube has about 20 videos on it and new owners are posting videos as their order is delivered. Organic Transit was in the same position 5 years ago. Let's celebrate this expanding category of hybrid powered velomobiles that directly replace cars for many owners.
Specs are available at better.bike/pebl/
My personal opinion on this new as yet unproven design: at 35 pounds heavier then the Organic Transit ELF it is pushing the weight limits for legitimate pedal assist. It has too many accessories as standard equipment so they will start losing money immediately. The body material of hemp fiber w/naturally sourced resins is unproven as to durability and will require special treatment for repairs compared to the recyclable trylon shell of the ELF which usually bounces back after being dented. The enclosed floor and small door of the PEBL will make it too hot and cause a window fogging issue. The smaller door and tighter fit of the rider's legs will restrict use by older drivers. The ELF has three 4000 mile cross country trips to its credit and 4 million road miles logged. 13 reported ELF/car collisions and still no injuries to any drivers! This is what we should celebrate, the safest bicycle type vehicle ever produced! Competition is good, may the best bike win!

Both the PEBL and ELF are too heavy to be considered as electric assisted bicycles/tricycles (Ebikes), but should be thought of as light electric vehicles (LEVs) with human pedal assist. I think about a 100 pound curb weight is the realistic limit of anything that should be considered an Ebike that can still be easily propelled by human power alone.
Some potential customers of the PEBL, ELF or Virtue Pedalist may be better served by the ZEV T3-1 Micro http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/31.html and setting up a pedal powered battery charger at home to get the exercise aspect of the pedal cars. https://www.k-tor.com/Power-Box

Ravi Kempaiah
3 weeks ago

If I were in your position, I would look at these options.

Ohm cycles. This Friday they have 30% off on all their bikes. Get the sport model with super moto x tires, supernova m99 lights for $3100 and 3 year warranty. Great bike with throttle feature. https://ohmcycles.com/e-bikes/sport/
Easy motion EVO city 2017/2018. Again very nice bike with wonderful support.
If you can wait a bit, juiced cross current S. Throttle feature for onward commute and pedal assist for the return leg. https://www.juicedbikes.com/collections/e-bikes?nopreview

If you have a shop that can help you with maintenance, I would also look at lunacycle bikes like the roam. https://lunacycle.com/roam-fusion/

Ravi Kempaiah
3 weeks ago

In my experience, a geared hub has the best of both worlds. A pretty good coasting hub and easy to pedal unpowered. Two sides of the same coin (coasting and pedaling unpowered)

Granted, mid-drives coast better but they are not super easy to pedal unpowered (e.g., Bosch, may be Brose or Shimano is better in that regard).
When I was training for my cross country ride, I used to ride a Haibike Full Seven S Rx (now owned by @rich c ) unpowered for 10-15 miles.
If your bike has a sprocket equalizing system, pedaling such a bike for long distances without any assist is very difficult.
I have a Haibike Trekking S Rx and it coasts better than the Stromer ST2. But, I have not replaced the brake pads on my ST2 in over 5000 miles while, my Trekking S Rx has consumed a set of pads already.

In short, each system has its own pros and cons. But, mid-drive E-bikes do coast better.

rich c
3 weeks ago

I believe to accurately show the correct mph speed. Thin tires spin more than thick tires over the same distance.

Still confused. Tube diameter has no effect on tire circumference. You need tire circumference information for speed, not tube cross section.

rich c
3 weeks ago

I believe to accurately show the correct mph speed. Thin tires spin more than thick tires over the same distance.

Still confused. Tube diameter has no effect on tire circumference. You need tire circumference information for speed, not tube cross section.

Echos
3 weeks ago

Weiterstadt, Germany - Riese & Müller - www.r-m.de - a maker of luxury eBikes sold worldwide has introduced the stylishly minimal and clean Roadster that will change how you look at eBikes. The Roadster’s sleek frame and traditional aesthetics combined with the best new e-technology are sure to catch the eye as you navigate urban areas or head out of the city and into the countryside.

Stylish, clean and minimal define the approach and lines of the redesigned Roadster while offering all of the technology and performance expected from Riese & Müller. The Roadster factors in concepts of classic bicycle frames: diamond frame construction, narrow rounded tube cross-sections, almost horizontal top-tube and delicate seat stays. The result is a clean, lightweight and sporty appearance that Riese & Muller have dubbed E-sthetics for those who love the classic construction and feel the technical elements of an eBike detract from the overall look of a bicycle. The Roadster incorporates a new, lighter Bosch Active Plus motor, the Gates belt drive, and Suntour NCX fork, bringing the total weight to just below 44 pounds. The Roaster is a perfect city rocket built for those who want all the benefits of an eBike in a classic look.

Features:

Bosch Performance CX Motor

36V / 500 watt battery

Shimano Deore 10-speed drivetrain

Magura MT4 hydraulic brakes

Suntour NCX Suspension Front Fork

Three Available Sizes

Mixte Model Available

Available colors: Electric Green Metallic, Black Matte, White

MSRP: $3879 (starting price)

Landing Page

Echos
3 weeks ago

Weiterstadt, Germany - Riese & Müller - www.r-m.de - a maker of luxury eBikes sold worldwide has introduced the stylishly minimal and clean Roadster that will change how you look at eBikes. The Roadster’s sleek frame and traditional aesthetics combined with the best new e-technology are sure to catch the eye as you navigate urban areas or head out of the city and into the countryside.

Stylish, clean and minimal define the approach and lines of the redesigned Roadster while offering all of the technology and performance expected from Riese & Müller. The Roadster factors in concepts of classic bicycle frames: diamond frame construction, narrow rounded tube cross-sections, almost horizontal top-tube and delicate seat stays. The result is a clean, lightweight and sporty appearance that Riese & Muller have dubbed E-sthetics for those who love the classic construction and feel the technical elements of an eBike detract from the overall look of a bicycle. The Roadster incorporates a new, lighter Bosch Active Plus motor, the Gates belt drive, and Suntour NCX fork, bringing the total weight to just below 44 pounds. The Roaster is a perfect city rocket built for those who want all the benefits of an eBike in a classic look.

Features:

Bosch Performance CX Motor

36V / 500 watt battery

Shimano Deore 10-speed drivetrain

Magura MT4 hydraulic brakes

Suntour NCX Suspension Front Fork

Three Available Sizes

Mixte Model Available

Available colors: Electric Green Metallic, Black Matte, White

MSRP: $3879 (starting price)

Landing Page

ABOUT RIESE & MÜLLER
It all began with two engineers, a good idea and a garage. But not in California, rather in the south of Hesse. In Darmstadt, to be more precise. In the parent's courtyard. Immediately after the company was founded, it won the Innovation Prize in 1993 and has grown to become an internationally renowned premium manufacturer of E-Bikes and folding bikes. As previously, Riese & Müller manufactures the most innovative bikes of tomorrow with the passion of yesteryear - and still in Weiterstadt, not far from the old garage.

Andy_Austria
3 weeks ago

TAIL LIGHT / BRAKE LIGHT FAIL

Hi there,
owning my N-Class for some weeks I can report an issue to maybe save you some hassle there.

The N-Class comes with fat tires and very low mounted fenders, which looks great. Also the cables for the tail light are routed neatly inside the fender.
But - and this is a big BUT - while the cables live in their own little tube on the side of the fender for most of the time, they cross to the middle fully exposed before they penetrate the fender to connect to the light unit.

And this is where seemingly a small rock picked up by the tire thread was cutting the wires and shorting them out.

Result was a completely dead tail light unit which did not come to life even after the wires were fixed. Doing my homework I tested the tail light/brake light unit on a 6V battery, as the connectors are clearly labelled "positive" and "negative" stating they expect 6V AC/DC. The light fired up, so the problem was elsewhere.

As the light cable only has two wires, but can produce a permanent tail light as well as a brake light, I assumed this is done by different voltages, say 6V or 7V being sent to the same positive terminal on the light. The 2 light wires connect to a little black box under the "tank" cover, which is connected to the main controller by 3 wires and fed with 36V. So that little black box (light controller?) may do the conversion from 36V down and produce different voltages for brake/tail light, depending on the controller wire input.
And it was definitely shot.

To prevent that I recommend moving the fender further away from the tire where the tail light lives, and maybe protect the wires with some extra heat shrink tube.

As the damage was already done and I did not have spare light controller, I found the following fix:
The front LED headlight has 4 connectors of which 2 still were free (unused). Knowing from other bicycle contraptions these two were for connecting a standard tail light. So I just routed a new 2 wire cable from the headlight to the tail light unit and connected it there. Tail light now works as expected, I only lost the brake light (which I did not like anyway). This was a cheap fix. The main work was to get that new cable into the frame and back out, at least to down where the cranks live. From there I chose to route the cable along the rear frame and fender struts, so it is not exposed to wear inside the fender.

For removing that old cable from inside the fender I had to take the wheel out. I then removed the little stainless steel brackets holding the cable, noting that one rivet was already loose and one clip was gone, so the rivets seem to eat through the plastic fenders over time. I drilled them out and closed up the holes with some black tape.

FRONT CABLE ROUTING

While I was at connecting that new light cable I also corrected one major design flaw (IMHO): the front cable routing ist just plain awful, as all the cables come down on one side of the light and right beside it as seen here: https://electricbikereview.com/ariel-rider/n-class/
I had to temporarily undo one of the switch/lever units from the handlebar and cut the harness a bit wider open to correct that. Only some black cable ties were used to bring the cables closer to the handlebar.
The cables are now routed motorcycle style left AND right BEHIND that light. Which complements the motorbikish look of it :-)

This was a lot of text - I try upload some pictures later on.

Andy

zap016VOLTAGE
3 weeks ago

The End
Victim of its own success

Today I sold my Mariner.
There was a number of factors which influenced my decision to sell it.
It wasn’t the ebike its self.
Although in the end, it was the ebike its self.

The Mariner rode like a cloud! The experience was cross between a motorbike and a bicycle. Because of its large size and being somewhat heavy it felt more moto than bicycle. Most appealing was its exhilarating swoosh! Out accelerating gassers from stop light to stop light. Having the capacity to scale obstacles with aplomb no hills were too steep. Even stairs presented little challenge to the Mariner.

What’s in a name? “Mariner” suggest adventure, long distance travel. However range was somewhat lacking. I came to expect no more than 20 miles or so. While encouraging exploration the distance it was able to travel ultimately was limited.

Another cause for frustration was its Silverfish style battery. I believed those batteries to be standardized. One was like another I assumed. Only after purchasing the Mariner did I learn otherwise. Not all Silverfish batteries are created equal. While battery’s having greater capacity do exist, there’s no telling whether it might work on the Mariner or no.

However compelling the Mariner may be, the inability to increase it’s milage, as well a few other issues - NYC ebike crackdown - caused me to rethink ownership.

It was fun while it lasted.

Good bye:(

hurricane56
3 weeks ago

Hi all, what's everyone's take on getting drafted by other bikers, non-ebike and regular bike? I started the ebike commute in January of this year and now have clocked in almost 3500 miles. During my regular afternoon commute you usually end up seeing the same people. On my route I cross over a longish shared use bike/walk path. Since there's usually no pedestrians, all of the ebikes and road bikers usually crest the top of the bridge and power down at full speed. About once a week now, I get the same really fast guy on a road bike stuck to rear drafting me down the bridge and through the following bike path for the next 4 miles.
It's only slightly annoying to me, but most importantly it strikes me a safety concern as this biker is literally touching my rear wheel. Many times the area where this biker ends up drafting me is in an open flat area with high winds. I've topped 33mph on my Haibike and crashing at that speed with someone right behind you is something I'd like to avoid.

Question for all here is what are your opinions on this? Should I just introduce myself and ask him to stay back a couple of feet? Or am I being a bit to concerned about him crashing into me?

Manu
4 weeks ago

Your pedelec has a wheel of 27.5+ that is equal in circumference to a wheel of 29 inches and both are of greater circumference to the 28 inches of the treking and marathon, that greater difference causes that at same cadence you have the same speed that the trekking and cross.you do not need the 48 tooth plate.

Take lighter tires you can remove 400 grams on 2 wheels and you will win easier to roll and more battery autonomy.
The treking and cross model is much simpler and is adapted for asphalt and track without holes, the position of the human body is 60º, more aerodynamic vs 90º MTB and the wheels are lighter than those of MTB, being lighter they help to roll more Easily with less effort and give more battery autonomy

pj520
5 days ago

Can't stand a bike that has fenders that rattle. Poorly supported and noisy fenders make me look elsewhere.

Baron Of Hell
4 months ago

I think you should try rigging your bike with c4 to deter thieves. They'll never take another bike after being blown to hell. Insurance will cover any damage to the bike.

Greg Palmer
4 months ago

There's some great things to the Bosch motor. I just sold an Electra Townie Go! Mainly because I grew to hate the top speed cutout. When you hit 19+ mph it felt as if you ran into wet cement. Too bad , great Hill climbing motor but just no fun to commute , they need to do something !

Philip Samaniego
4 months ago

I like having a close look. I stay more informed with every video. Thanks man!

Aziz Messaoud
4 months ago

Why don t you make a graphene bike review

Aziz Messaoud
4 months ago

Hey .please make the super 73 scout & rose ave EBIKE PLEASEEEEEE

Michigan Mister
4 months ago

can you explain the "adapters" deal with the valve stem? also, you always mention "frame flex" with the step through's, even with the battery over the rear wheel, is it honestly such a big concern for just "cruising"? thanks buddy-

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

I think the valve is for Dunlop tubes, that's what Chris (Propel Bikes) told me. The model reviewed here does reflect the final consumer edition closely but not perfectly, I shot this in May and they have only just now begun selling them, I had a press embargo to honor so during that time little things might have changed like the inner tubes in the US vs. the sample bike from Europe. As for frame flex, I don't think it's a big deal for medium and low speeds and especially for cruising... more of a deal for mountain bikes or if you have a heavy load and start to experience speed wobble (where the front wheel shimmies and resonates with speed, ultimately crashing you). I mention it because it is a compromise or consideration... but it's relatively minor with this particular bike, and you could reduce it by opting for the mid-step or high-step frame styles.

Crazy Lenny's Ebikes
4 months ago

We have been expecting this model for few months and we are delighted to offer this to our customers. BH Xenion City Wave was one of the top sellers and once we sold out of them, we were looking for a step-thru bike that is high-quality yet affordable. BULLS has done a great job with this bike and the fact that they offer 500 Whr powerpack with this bike is really cool.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

I agree with you, wouldn't be surprised if this became one of the more popular Bulls ebike models. How is your new store doing?

Tracey McNeel
4 months ago

Idea: An e-bike with a carbon belt drive.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

That's a great idea! A few of them have created models that do indeed use a carbon belt drive (usually from Gates) and internally geared hubs or even continuously variable transmissions. Here's one with both: https://electricbikereview.com/riese-muller/charger-mixte-gt-touring-hs/ but there are many more on the site, just search for NuVinci or Gates :)

frank doster
4 months ago

nice

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Totally, this one hits a sweet spot :D

Ebiking Now
4 months ago

Looks so modern!
Will you be getting any of the eMTB from 2018 lineup?

Ebiking Now
4 months ago

True, I like that idea! That's more helpful to the consumers, and especially for us Aussies since we get things so much later. Love your work! Hope to one day see how you run all of this

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Yeah, I sort of review nonstop but try to focus on current year models, in the case of this review I actually covered it in May but was asked to hold off on publishing until they were in stock and ready to sell in the US. My goal is to help people navigate and select from products that are ready for purchase vs. exploring what's coming or might be (like Kickstarters and stuff... even though I have done a few reviews of prototypes)

Renzo Riga
4 months ago

$2800 and cost-saving measures left and right...what do you consider the best value for money in the market today?

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

That's such a difficult question because it depends on budget and how the bike would be used. There are plenty of $1,500 ebikes that offer great value for people who don't ride as far or as frequently (see Rad Power Bikes, Voltbike, Juiced Bikes, and Magnum as the price rises)... but if you need the bike to perform on a daily basis, need, fenders, lights etc. and maybe ride further, then the Cross E here is at or near the top of the list. Again, not that these other products couldn't also be reliable and capable... they just aren't using the same systems). I'm a big fan of Bosch based on how it feels and how you interact with it as a user but I constantly hear shops saying that they are also reliable which goes a long way to earning my trust. Not just the initial purchase and support, but also backward compatibility, their Magura service partner in the USA, and their long-term support for parts and stuff, that's easy to overlook at first blush with a range of bike products with different price tags but I feel that it's important and worth paying for if you need a reliable form of transportation so to speak.

Stan Ko
4 months ago

How to order this e-bike.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

I'm not completely sure, maybe reach out to Bulls to find a local dealer? They could order the size and style you want. Here's their website: http://www.bullsebikes.com/edealers/ if you can work with a local dealer, they will help you get fitted and offer great support, but there are some shops that also sell online if you don't live near a dealer.

James Mason
4 months ago

Good to see a new video you must be busy

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Hi James! Yeah, I have been traveling and filming nonstop for the past three weeks. Just got to a stable place and will be publishing new videos every day, got 40+ to do in the coming month and a half before Interbike :D thanks for saying hi

Rick James
4 months ago

This one being "inexpensive"...how does that compare to the RadCity I have? I am surprised how well built the RadCity is, so wondering what an extra $1000 would get me for this BULL Cross E bicycle. Thanks!

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Great question Rick, I feel like Rad Power Bikes is doing a great job and has solid products that seem to be holding up well. They are a leader in the space and able to sell for less because they go direct. So you end up doing more of the setup and maintenance on your own or with a possibly reluctant shop vs. a focused dealer. Some of the areas that it wins aside from having a lower price is how quiet it is and that it has a throttle (if you're okay with Class 2 vs. Class 1 where you live). I built a tool to help compare ebikes side by side and you can see the RadCity vs. the Cross E with this link: https://electricbikereview.com/compare/items/88616,91984

To help clarify, I have listed some of the differences here for you: compared to the Cross E, the RadCity drivetrain has one fewer gears, there are more exposed wires, you can't get a deep step-thru frame and even their mid-step is higher (too high for some customers who have left comments), it only comes in two sizes vs. four, it's slightly heavier, uses mechanical disc brakes vs. hydraulic which don't have adjustable levers and require more hand strength to operate, doesn't come with a keyed-alike lock, isn't as capable at climbing based on switching gears and probably won't go as far per charge despite having a higher capacity battery, the battery isn't as cleanly integrated and may not be support as long, nor are the fenders as well secured, there's no chain cover and overall, the system is just less refined... you can't remove the display and interacting with it isn't as quick or seamless in my opinion.

For someone who takes care of their bike, desires value, wants that throttle, is willing to setup themselves, fits the higher frames, appreciates the look etc. the RadCity is great. It's one of many good products on the market today and sometimes comparing is less about price or style vs. having a dealer or appreciating a different drive system. Based on my experience with Bosch and hearing from many sources, it is one of the most reliable systems out there but gearless hubs also work well and are known for being reliable too. I call the Cross E "inexpensive" in this video relative to the systems it offers more than where it's positioned in the overall market. You can get ebikes for under $1k or even make them these days... but it's difficult to find a Bosch powered ebike for under $2.5k and this one has lots of great supporting systems and sizes. I hope this helps to clarify. I'm glad you're doing well with your RadCity! It's a solid bike :)

Alfred lucky
4 months ago

Long time to see you doing this. I like it you're back.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Thanks Alfred! I was driving from San Francisco to Portland, Seattle, Vancouver Canada, and down to Utah. Shot 40 new models which I will be posting in the coming months on a daily basis :D

NYangryguy
4 months ago

Way more quiet with that shift sensor. I am on a home theater pc with 7.1 surround to when I listen to your stuff it usually makes me cringe with anything you do mid drive and no shift sensor. This one I am impressed.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

I think part of the quiet shifting has to do with the smoother, weaker, Bosch Active motor and the efficiency and ease of terrain I was riding on. All Bosch motors have shift detection but the CX models are just so zippy and powerful that there is still some mashing. Glad you liked what you heard/saw though :D

Theo Wink
4 months ago

It's the hand from the Adams family
!
No pun attended ..Good neutral reviews,as always.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Thanks! Doing my best, lots more new content on the way, some really fun unique rides and adventures mixed in with the bikes ;)

mattyj342111
4 months ago

wow thank you for the great reviews and for getting back to me

Propel Electric Bikes
4 months ago

Great to see more sub 3k Bosch powered bikes!

Btw - the tires have a Dunlop valve. That funny thing we were talking about on the Kalkhoff. It's pneumatic like the Schrader Valve, but the threads are like the Presta Valve.

ElectricBikeReview.com
4 months ago

Hmm, thanks for the tip Chris! I was wondering what the deal was... Even though I have spent so much time with experts like you looking at all of these ebikes, I still feel like I learn something new all the time :D